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Chapter 1.2 Testing

Test Server Information & what needs currently testing
Mack
Junior Flight Officer
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:04 am
United States of America

Re: Chapter 1.2 Testing

#21

Post by Mack » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:01 pm

Thanks for the deeply in-depth response Tyclo. Much appreciated. Your responses weren’t overly heated. I can understand your frustration with as much as you have on your plate. I do, however, have feedback.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
See my other response, we will eventually get to SL. Development takes time and we've only had light discussion on the matter outside of fixing the immediate issues.
Totally understandable. Just thought you might want to fiddle with this idea as you were working on the distance calculations, and SL was taking a nerf.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
I suggest checking it out TC if you're curious about loot. The respawn/lockout timer is currently reduced for testing. There will be two Acklay's, the instance Acklay with about the same loot chances as the current but slightly lower stats, then an Acklay in the same location as the current, which is harder and un-soloable but with better loot chances and new loot drops including two weapons and a speeder.
Anything you can do instance-wise is simply amazing. This will be a great change. My only concern is the “slightly lower stats” statement. If you mean slightly lower stats on bones compared to the current stats, I would just be concerned that players might not use the instance as much, and I know you put a ton of work into it.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
We are adjusting the way the SEA Removal Tool works. You will be able to pick one attachment, with a chance to receive others. Patch notes will follow once it is deployed to test.
As I said, I wasn’t concerned about it, but being able to choose one of the SEAs you get to keep is probably a good idea. I also like the changes that allow different crafting profs a better chance at extraction. /thumbsup
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
Keeping it at 30 would defeat the purpose of the change. Players are currently agroing entire dungeons and killing them in ~20s. If the Defender doesn't want to waste force healing for 15s, then don't agro too much with AI or bring a Doctor/CM/Healer.
I must have been a bit no unclear on the purpose of the change. I thought it was because Jedi were chaining AI to be unkillable while taking down turrets and were chaining AI when in solo and group PVP, then FR2ing and channeling to regen. The additional force regen tapes probably don’t help matters but it is what it is. I can see the dungeon issue though as I’ve seen dungeons pulled and soloed using AI+absorb on other servers and whole PVP bases being pulled as well. I didn’t think it was possible to not only round up but kill an entire dungeon of really high end mobs in 20 seconds, but perhaps it is and I just haven’t seen it.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
At the high end, calculations for skill mods increase exponentially. This is not an simple addition.
Fair enough.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
Krayts/Tanrats are not broken. There is nothing wrong with the loot drops and most of the junk is removed, there is a 15% chance to receive stims, but that's because I had to tone it back because of the SEA issues. They are a ~30% better (If not more) than pre-Chapter 1. I just killed 20 Legendary Tanrats and got 6 flawless geodes, 4 premiums and a horrifyingly high amount of tissues that I will need to adjust.
Is test mimicking live right now? I guess getting a more definitive % chance of each drop would give us a better idea if things are awry or not? I’ve looked at the githubs in the past and I know it’s a bit complicated as far as groups of loot etc. to break down into specific %s (at least for me), but it would be helpful.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
If you all want, I can just revert Krayt Ancients and Grands to pre-Chapter 1 since they are supposedly "broken." Or, I can revert them to Basilisk where your loot chances for flawless pearls hover around single digits. They are-FULL STOP-not broken and are actually dropping more tissues than I would like.
No sense in going to the extreme or getting upset. I will say that my luck the last few days has gotten dramatically better. I’ll take your word that no changes were made after the “adjustment.” Also, tissues may be dropping more, but tissues that are actually usable are still very rare. I am good with it though because if you do enough hunting you will eventually get good ones.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
Group members helping? That will never happen, it's a technical dumpster fire and completely unfair to BHs. If there's a group of 20 players and a BH pulls a mission, he will never be able to defeat his bounty. Everyone is always grouped, this will nullify BH missions completely. Even if it makes sense "lore wise," lore goes out the window when it comes to balance. If people want "lore" then we can just remove Jedi completely since they're suppose to almost be extinct.

I have to be honest, this suggestion only sounds like it's coming from the "target's point of view and not considering the Bounty Hunter. I've been getting this suggestion a lot and it would not work, period.
I don’t care about lore.

I would surmise that almost anyone that has played on a server that allows group members to help when BH come for Jedi would attest that it actually encourages PVP, not nullifies BH missions. BH and his buddies come for Jedi, Jedi and his buddies fight back, BH brings more people to help, etc. Jedi’s BH buddies retaliate and form a group to go after Jedi that were with the BH, and the cycle goes on. Yes, it’s a bit of a tef-mess. I would invite 5 BH to take my mission if my friends could help. It IS possible and has worked many times in the past.

As far as the target’s point of view thing... This I take exception to. No. Just no. I’m interested in balance. I enjoy playing BH too! Jedi have been living with potentially being hunted by 5 BH and flamethrower specials hitting once per second for 2500+ damage (at a minimum!) when KD for some time now. Not to mention the issue of BH bringing along their 50k HAM faction pets (Which is something else that needs to be addressed). This is no sane person’s idea of balance, and this gross imbalance has apparently been going on for a long time.

It is my understanding that SR has traditionally been more of a PVE-centric and RP EU server (please correct me if I am wrong). Now that more PVP players are migrating here, the issues have become more glaring, forcing fixes to take place.

I know it is likely not worth a hill of beans, but I’m trying to give my feedback based on actively PVPing and PVEing on 8+ emu servers over the years, Basilisk, and Live from start to finish.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
Go on Test Center and provide feedback with numbers. Post your findings here.
I absolutely hate to give the default answer, but I have to. I have a 60+ hour a week job, family, 3 active kids. I don’t get as much time to play as I would like, and when I do, I prefer to play on a server that matters and not test. I simply don’t have time. The only reason I can type all this out now is because I am on a plane.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
Removes a fire dot from the Special Heavy Weapon tree.
Ok. Still, there needs to be a why. AFAIK PVE commandos generally take Master anyways for the accuracy and extra dot from cone2. My guess is that BH would use single2 spam primarily vs a Jedi, not be overly concerned with the lowest dot available to them.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
Means they need (xx4x), can't try to get away with (xx3x). Yes, some did this.
I guess? I can get pretty damn creative with a PVP template, but I don’t think those 2 SP points will make a dramatic difference.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
It actually means nothing because some have a 0.1 speed flamethrower, but I did it anyways.
Agreed. But this will effect PVE primarily, and that’s not what I thought needed fixing. No one should be using a .1 speed flamer in PVE unless they enjoy destroying their stuff and have more of it than they can get rid of. I use 2.4 speed and lower flamers in PVE, pretty sure I kill more krayts and tanrats than anyone, and it is plenty fast enough with 25 speed tapes.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
It still means they can miss through saber block. Add in the fact that they require a second tree to be accurate mean something.
Not sure what “can miss through saber block” means as saber block doesn’t stop special heavy weapon specials. I guess you mean that ranged defense will work against the accuracy mods? I guess so, but once again, Jedi will be pigeon-holed into taking Master Defender to just defend against this BH/commando template, and the most likely option is to run once they switch to TK to avoid spending force doing no damage.

I’m guessing that my assumption about you trying to force the template of BH3000/MTK/Commando0044 so there is no novice medic was correct, then?

Just picture this for a moment. BH3000/MTK/Commando0042/nov medic (assuming, likely incorrectly, you put a measly 5 Acc in each of Commando 0001 and 0002). That’s 30 from skills, 25 tape, 40 Citrus, so 95 Acc with no FS skills. Jedi has 0400 Defender, so 55 Ranged Def, +25 tape, +23 food, 103 total RD. (Yes, the Ranged Mit1) will have an effect. Not much has changed. You are still getting hit too hard at once per second. The only logical solution is having the flamer damage reduced by a significant % in PVP.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
If I could go back in time and stop the person who added Special Heavy Weapons SEAs to this server I would, but I can't. We're stuck with them.
It is what it is. I don’t mind the change for PVE really. It only really causes issues in PVP, and as you said above, some have .1 speed flamers so it’s fairly insignificant.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
Please log onto test and provide screenshots with numbers. I've been getting a lot of suggestions/opinions from players, but not a single person has helped me test these numbers. All these changes are a start, this is on Test Center for a reason.
Default answer above, unfortunately.

The ultimate issue with Jedi vs non-Jedi (melee, esp TK) comes down to PSGs combined with toughness, but I won’t get started on the history of LS resists on PSGs in Live, why they are awful, and why they should be removed.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
There are more options on the table, but none, including those you have listed are pretty. You're talking about adding A TON of calculations every time a combat event is fired, whether it's a flamethrower, a non-flamethrower, a jedi or against a player or a non-player, there's overhead. We tack on one calculation here, another there and next thing you know the server is lagging out every time a flamethrower is fired.

The goal is not to nerf the Commando profession into the ground, but adjust the BH/Commando template.
I am not a coder. I was unaware that adding a modifier for flamethrowers just in PVP would cause a big coding issue. I’m just trying to think outside the box as an experienced player by looking at potential templates and rational (or what seem to be rational to me, but certainly may not be to others) changes.

I’ve made similar templates before on other servers with no extra speed and a .3 flamer, and it’s absolutely devastating, against far more OP Jedi than we have here.

I think the goal is mutual. The adjustment of the BH/Insert Melee/Commando template. I only want the PVP changes, that’s why I said to make the PVP % damage change, so you don’t have to screw with the trees much. That 2500 damage while KD from a flamer reduced 75% is now 625 per second, still has dot effects, which is much more manageable, tho still very potent. You can still hit the other 2 dots to stack on 3 total dots. Balance.
Tyclo wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:45 pm
Sorry if any of my responses are heated, this is just the 10th or so time I've answered these same questions and that's an hour of a half of working on these issues that was instead spent answering questions on the forums. Now I get to go to Discord and answer the same questions again.
No offense taken. I just thought feedback and suggestions were requested on the potential changes, so I did my best based on my knowledge and experience of the game, not the coding.

No one is being attacked here. Civil discussion about things we disagree on should be the norm, not the exception (something the real world could certainly engage in more often, instead of demonization).

I don’t expect a full blown response or a response at all, or to even read anything I responded with, as you owe me nothing, have the server to run, work, and your own life to live. If you do value feedback, however, please just consider some of the things discussed.

Many of us are very passionate about SWG and care about the server they play on. Hell, its been part of my life for 17 years now. If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t have dipped my toe in the water.

Dredge
Junior Flight Officer
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:54 pm
United States of America

Re: Chapter 1.2 Testing

#22

Post by Dredge » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:47 pm

The follow skill mod increases the chance for extracting an SEA from a piece of armor or clothing:

• Force Sensitive Luck


So, it seems we're going to be forced to grind FS just for removing tapes if we want to have the best chance.

Not a fan. At all. Forcing players to go down any of those types of trees for crafting is nonsense. I don't want to grind any Jedi content. None.

Why should crafters have to go down Jedi trees for crafting? Are we going to be forced to go down crafting trees for the best melee/ranged classes next? You know, you have to become a Chef if you want the best Rifleman DPS.

WTF?

User avatar
Tyclo
Admiral
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:08 pm
Location: Las Vegas, NV
United States of America

Re: Chapter 1.2 Testing

#23

Post by Tyclo » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:37 pm

Mack wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:01 pm
Anything you can do instance-wise is simply amazing. This will be a great change. My only concern is the “slightly lower stats” statement. If you mean slightly lower stats on bones compared to the current stats, I would just be concerned that players might not use the instance as much, and I know you put a ton of work into it.
20 hour cool down on the instance per character, 8 to 10 on the world encounter. The idea is you can do both given the ability, the instance is an alternative. The world encounter at the bottom the Geo cave isn't afk-able anymore. A group Acklay may come in the future, but developing the logic for handling groups with instances will be a time consuming task.
Mack wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:01 pm
I must have been a bit no unclear on the purpose of the change. I thought it was because Jedi were chaining AI to be unkillable while taking down turrets and were chaining AI when in solo and group PVP, then FR2ing and channeling to regen. The additional force regen tapes probably don’t help matters but it is what it is. I can see the dungeon issue though as I’ve seen dungeons pulled and soloed using AI+absorb on other servers and whole PVP bases being pulled as well. I didn’t think it was possible to not only round up but kill an entire dungeon of really high end mobs in 20 seconds, but perhaps it is and I just haven’t seen it.
There were many reason, both PvE and PvP related.
Mack wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:01 pm
Is test mimicking live right now? I guess getting a more definitive % chance of each drop would give us a better idea if things are awry or not? I’ve looked at the githubs in the past and I know it’s a bit complicated as far as groups of loot etc. to break down into specific %s (at least for me), but it would be helpful.
I will be updating the public repo after the next patch. I've been very busy and haven't even updated our private master branch, let alone the public.


Mack wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:01 pm
I absolutely hate to give the default answer, but I have to. I have a 60+ hour a week job, family, 3 active kids. I don’t get as much time to play as I would like, and when I do, I prefer to play on a server that matters and not test. I simply don’t have time. The only reason I can type all this out now is because I am on a plane.
I too work 60+ hours a week at two jobs, have friends, family and something that I think I could possibly consider a social life. The issue is that while I have received a lot of complaints and some suggestions concerning Jedi and Flamethrowers, I haven't received a single screenshot with damage numbers, even when requested. I typically get a PM or someone complains publicly, I ask for a screenshot of the combat log, then I almost never get a response. I hear "2500 damage" but I never see it. I've received maybe two screenshots, both ended up being heavy exaggerations. This has happened more times than I can recall at this point.

But I do have something up my sleeve that I will be trying out.
Mack wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:01 pm
Ok. Still, there needs to be a why. AFAIK PVE commandos generally take Master anyways for the accuracy and extra dot from cone2. My guess is that BH would use single2 spam primarily vs a Jedi, not be overly concerned with the lowest dot available to them.
The "target" isn't to balance Commandos at the moment, it's to balance BH+Commando.
Mack wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:01 pm
Not sure what “can miss through saber block” means as saber block doesn’t stop special heavy weapon specials. I guess you mean that ranged defense will work against the accuracy mods? I guess so, but once again, Jedi will be pigeon-holed into taking Master Defender to just defend against this BH/commando template, and the most likely option is to run once they switch to TK to avoid spending force doing no damage.

I’m guessing that my assumption about you trying to force the template of BH3000/MTK/Commando0044 so there is no novice medic was correct, then?

Just picture this for a moment. BH3000/MTK/Commando0042/nov medic (assuming, likely incorrectly, you put a measly 5 Acc in each of Commando 0001 and 0002). That’s 30 from skills, 25 tape, 40 Citrus, so 95 Acc with no FS skills. Jedi has 0400 Defender, so 55 Ranged Def, +25 tape, +23 food, 103 total RD. (Yes, the Ranged Mit1) will have an effect. Not much has changed. You are still getting hit too hard at once per second. The only logical solution is having the flamer damage reduced by a significant % in PVP.
Flamethrowers are not considered during saberblock, they are the same as any other ranged weapon: https://github.com/DesporoWace/SWG-SR/b ... .cpp#L1636 - There's no calculation.
See the following screenshot:
flamethrower-sb.PNG
You can still miss, so lowering accuracy will cause the flamethrower to possibly miss.
Mack wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:01 pm
No offense taken. I just thought feedback and suggestions were requested on the potential changes, so I did my best based on my knowledge and experience of the game, not the coding.

No one is being attacked here. Civil discussion about things we disagree on should be the norm, not the exception (something the real world could certainly engage in more often, instead of demonization).

I don’t expect a full blown response or a response at all, or to even read anything I responded with, as you owe me nothing, have the server to run, work, and your own life to live. If you do value feedback, however, please just consider some of the things discussed.

Many of us are very passionate about SWG and care about the server they play on. Hell, its been part of my life for 17 years now. If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t have dipped my toe in the water.
The feedback is greatly appreciated, there's just a lot of misconceptions/false information floating around (Not saying from you, but in general) as well as some recent problems with players being aggressive towards staff. We're doing the best we can with the information available and the time we have to dedicate to making changes. We cannot make everyone happy and we recommend that everyone try thinking of how we are going about making these changes from our perspective.

We are open to civil discussion and have been spending more time in Discord talking to players in voice about their concerns and how to handle some of the changes we are making. We're listening, but changes take time and testing. We have limited resources and work with what we have.
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Sereya
Sub-Commander
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:22 am
United States of America

Re: Chapter 1.2 Testing

#24

Post by Sereya » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:33 pm

Hey guys,

[EDIT: Made an error regarding MDEF]

I don't have any particularly strong opinion about flamer v jedi at this time, but wanted to share some testing data just for reference. Pardon the length of this post:

Flamer used: 655-1202 damage
Special used: specialHeavyWeaponSingle2

10 attacks versus MLS/MDefstanding up (NO mitigation food):
  • 1248
  • 1238
  • 1403
  • 1089
  • 1271
  • 1303
  • 1375
  • 1093
  • 1243
  • 1306
  • Average: ~1257
10 attacks versus MLS/MDef that has been KD'ed (NO mitigation food):
  • 1988
  • 1805
  • 1949
  • 1934
  • 2068
  • 2082
  • 1731
  • 1766
  • 1630
  • 1662
  • Average: ~1861

Observations and notes from this (limited) data set:
  • Note: I did not include misses in here
  • I think it's fair to just multiply the averages by percentage reductions to account for synth or exo. So the average damage to a KD'ed MLS running 26% exo would be ~1377, and an upright one would be ~930.
  • It's probably worth testing taped jedi vs taped commando BH with proper food to determine how often the flamer will actually miss
  • An incremental change to address this balance might be just moving Single2 to the master commando box. That way, only going xx4x would mean you'd only get an x5 mod instead of x8. I think this might be a good first test step
Last edited by Sereya on Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mack
Junior Flight Officer
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:04 am
United States of America

Re: Chapter 1.2 Testing

#25

Post by Mack » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:29 pm

An incremental change to address this balance might be just moving Single2 to the master commando box. That way, only going xx4x would mean you'd only get an x5 mod instead of x8. I think this might be a good first test step.

Totally agree with this Sereya.

Sereya
Sub-Commander
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:22 am
United States of America

Re: Chapter 1.2 Testing

#26

Post by Sereya » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:46 pm

After giving this some additional thought, I think it probably requires two changes to "fix":
  • Making saber block functional against flamers. I know it's a big leap, but unless this change is made it's pretty clear that flamethrowers >> all other ranged BH options, which seems kind of.... silly
  • Some kind of tweak to the damage output against jedi of commando weapons. If not, jedi will be forced to stay MDef (or close to it) or else they can be 2 shotted by flamers. The saber block would help this, of course, but I'd still feel like I was on the brink of death at all times if I tried to break out of the MLS/MDef meta. Maybe just the switch to the x5 modifier by moving Single2 to master commando
I know these changes force a vast rethink of flamer BHs. And that it'll cause some significant consternation. I'm also aware that nerfing commando/BHs just increases the likelihood that we'll only have jedi PvP, which I very much dislike. And of the fact that commando/BHs sacrifice a lot to be able to kill jedi (as they're basically useless against any normal classes in PvP).

Saber block + xx4x only having an x5 modifier will keep some deadliness to flamer BHs (if they can state jedi to reduce saber block), but I think might improve balance overall

Gawyn
Flight Officer
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:05 pm
United States of America

Re: Chapter 1.2 Testing

#27

Post by Gawyn » Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:55 am

•Duplicator Hint Data Disk:
◦Obtained as a random drop from any of the mobs in the high end Taanab dungeons, these Data Disks will give you the combinations for the Duplicator Prototype. When you loot the item, no combination will be encoded onto the disk. One you use the disk, the combination is permanently encoded to be viewed an unlimited number of times. Possible combinations are broken down into 3 rarities: common, uncommon and rare. Slicing the disk with a Smuggler will yield the possibility for a better combination.

Ran through 10 -15 mobs at the Freebooter Cave, Shipwreck, and the surveyor's encampment without looting a single one. My character has Slicing IV for terminals missions but figured I could try a disc but no luck getting any even off the Mini Bosses in Cave and Ship.

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Tyclo
Admiral
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:08 pm
Location: Las Vegas, NV
United States of America

Re: Chapter 1.2 Testing - March 19th 2020

#28

Post by Tyclo » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:58 pm

March 19th, 2020
This is a culmination of all Test Center notes between March 7th and March 19th:
Added:
  • Redeeding a Harvester or Generator with sufficient maintenance and an empty hopper will no longer ask for a code to redeed the installation. This will allow crafters to more easily move their harvesters when a resource shifts.
  • Bounty Hunters' Guild backpack.
    • 65 Slots
    • Unique appearance.
    • Drops as a 2 use schematic, craftable by Master Tailors
    • No stats.
Changed:
  • Commando:
    • Flamethrowers no longer do a 1.5x damage modifier against PvP targets who are knocked down. (No PvE changes)
    • Moved Special Heavy Weapon Single Attack 2 to Master Commando.
    • Removed an additional 5 Special Heavy Weapon accuracy from Commando. (15 total in Chapter 1.2)
    • Moved 5 Special Heavy Weapon Speed and 5 Special Heavy Weapon Accuracy to Explosives II (2xxx) in Commando.
    • Moved 5 Special Heavy Weapon Speed and 15 Special Heavy Weapon Accuracy to Explosives IV (2xxx) in Commando.
  • Rogue Bounty Hunter Level 4 BH mission now drops a Bounty Hunters' Guild backpack schematic instead of a statted backpack.
  • Player City Bazaars now show the skill and city rank requirements on their deeds description.
Fixed:
  • Desync issue when cloning to Tansarii Point Station from off planet that would cause objects and NPCs in the station not to load until softlogging.
  • SEA Removal Tool:
    • Description displaying the chance to retrieve an SEA is now more accurate.
    • Skill mod names are now better formatted for easier reading.
    • Tool may now have use counts, no player facing changes.
  • Listing an item on a vendor will now reset it's rotation. This prevents the ability to purchase an item and unknowingly having a rotation set by the seller that could place the item below the floor.
  • Squad Leader's will now correctly receive XP on some planets in some locations, most notably the northern section of Naboo between the cliffs and the coast.
  • Tatooine Vista collection items now display the correct menu "collect" name.
  • Invasive Species Droid now properly drops its third loot group.
  • Gamorrean Battleaxe from Jabba's Themepark is no longer disabled.
  • Fixed a naming inconsistency when adding charges to the Sarlacc Trash Can or Harvester Resource Extractor.
  • Fixed the description for the Place Bazaar skill in Politician.
  • Improved Installation Beacon efficiency.

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