ranged vs jedi

[aztecgold12]

I like the idea of the 30 sec disable and the bh speed boost that awesome suggested. I think either one would work if implemented correctly. Right now FR2 has no counter.

I also agree that master enhancer Jedi with Fr3 should be unstoppable from escaping. If they make the choice to be menhancer they deserve to be able to escape.

For the cm/bh I actually think they are fine and if I was going to change anything I’d just make it so the bh tef applies immediately. If we decrease their poisons, and the bh tef applies immediately and they have no defense, I’m guessing no one will play them and it will be too strong of a nerf, thus taking away another playstyle. A smart Jedi shouldn’t have too much trouble with them even now, just have to primary them.

[aztecgold12]

Additionally I’m all for giving carbines fast blast, and if we were to lower the number of bhs I’d say 3 should be the most lowered to. 5 is crazy, but sometimes for the best of the best Jedi 3v1s are actually the most fun and balanced fights.

Jedi is on the verge of OP here and buffed from live.

So, The way I feel the scale goes (if we are talking about a skilled Jedi that knows what they are doing)

1v1- bh has almost no chance of winning. Jedi should dominate

2v1- more evened up but in most cases the skilled Jedi should win

3v1- in bhs favor now, but Jedi still has a chance

4v1- bhs should dominate, Jedi has almost no chance of winning.

P.S. this is for village skill dropped NON FRS Jedi. A rank 11 frs Jedi might still need 5 to take them down.

Thus, if we implement the limit for non frs Jedi I think 3 is the best number.

[Whorg]

I disagree a little. A Bh who takes the time to equip himself with end game armor (Mando), weapons (whether it be exceptional/legendary or made with exc/leg tissues), fully taped etc, top of the line sliced imp psgs should be able to stand toe to toe with a Jedi 1v1. Jedi are not “alpha” here, and it doesn’t take long to obtain a maxd out template with gear. It takes FAR longer to equip the BH imo. Now your average geared and skilled BH against a skilled Jedi should lose 1v1 every time unless huge mistakes are made by the Jedi. Just my opinion.

[Awesome]

I agree with Whorg a min/max jedi vs a min/max BH is a tough fight 1 vs 1. I fought Hudas for 1 hour and 20minutes, the only reason it didn't go longer was he ran out of PSGs. Have to consider though not every player is a min maxer. I spent 2 months straight in the krayt yard farming pearls. Its one of the biggest reasons im able to control my force usage. Also a lot of these BH vs jedi comparisons we are making the jedi is a defender. BH vs a jedi template without enhancer 4xxx and MFD is a way different fight than against MLS/MFD/enhancer 4xx3/heal 3xxx

[Bells]

A bit off the main topic but here you go. . .The age old balance questions. What to add, what to take away. You would think as many times as this has been hashed out over and over for 15 years people would have formulated the perfect balance, if there was one, or realize this is an MMO . That every template is weak vs something, and every template has its strengths. Every person who plays enjoys something about the profession they choose. The reason we keep coming back to this game is because it is complex and challenging. On the developer's side as well as the player's. Some professions do need love, I agree. But I think the original intent for interaction between player professions is kind of exemplified in the armor. There is no set that covers all your vulnerabilities.

The option of withdrawal for a Jedi exists, to win exists, to lose exists, for that matter the same for a BH. I know this is a ranged vs Jedi thread but , I would like to remind everyone that CM /BH is generally accepted as a very weak template from veterans of this game. See here https://www.reddit.com/r/swgemu/comment ... rid_build/
Yet there is a consideration here of making it weaker from what I understand? Do you ever wonder why this delay on TEF was intentional from the EMU? Defense is a primary issue for CM. Especially since most skill points are tied into supporting your medic profession. The new specials being discussed are meaningless to this template.
I play it , it is weak , but the fact remains I enjoy it because it takes a complex system of support from chef AS , and a WS to generate a win for me. I don't expect to win against certain templates or players who know and or have practiced a way to beat me. It doesn't mean I stop trying. It doesn't mean I stop trying to tweak foods or armor or planning. It is about timing and surprise, as well as gearing up. It is a thoughtful game... that you need practice to win or luck. Luck never hurts.
#2cents
Sometimes you do have to blow things up to remind everyone , this is hard.

[aztecgold12]

A bit off the main topic but here you go. . .The age old balance questions. What to add, what to take away. You would think as many times as this has been hashed out over and over for 15 years people would have formulated the perfect balance, if there was one, or realize this is an MMO . That every template is weak vs something, and every template has its strengths. Every person who plays enjoys something about the profession they choose. The reason we keep coming back to this game is because it is complex and challenging. On the developer's side as well as the player's. Some professions do need love, I agree. But I think the original intent for interaction between player professions is kind of exemplified in the armor. There is no set that covers all your vulnerabilities.

The option of withdrawal for a Jedi exists, to win exists, to lose exists, for that matter the same for a BH. I know this is a ranged vs Jedi thread but , I would like to remind everyone that CM /BH is generally accepted as a very weak template from veterans of this game. See here https://www.reddit.com/r/swgemu/comment ... rid_build/
Yet there is a consideration here of making it weaker from what I understand? Do you ever wonder why this delay on TEF was intentional from the EMU? Defense is a primary issue for CM. Especially since most skill points are tied into supporting your medic profession. The new specials being discussed are meaningless to this template.
I play it , it is weak , but the fact remains I enjoy it because it takes a complex system of support from chef AS , and a WS to generate a win for me. I don't expect to win against certain templates or players who know and or have practiced a way to beat me. It doesn't mean I stop trying. It doesn't mean I stop trying to tweak foods or armor or planning. It is about timing and surprise, as well as gearing up. It is a thoughtful game... that you need practice to win or luck. Luck never hurts.
#2cents
Sometimes you do have to blow things up to remind everyone , this is hard.

You know what I agree with bells. A good Jedi can counter a cm/bh. I say leave it as it is. Just my opinion too.

[Whorg]

I have no problem with bh/cm alone. But pair it with another Bh that can keep you on the ground, High potency poisons will make quick work of you. Maybe if force resist poison/disease was made more reliable I’d be ok with leaving them as is, as it would fall into the checks and balances category. You want to be strong against CM/BH, ok, but you’ll sacrifice something and be weaker towards another spec. I’d be all for that.

[Awesome]

when I fight 2 BHs and one KDs me, I can heal and AI on the ground, theres a delay but I never leave myself vuln on the ground. Don't fear being KD, keep your head about you and don't panic all is well. Winning fights is being calm and calculating in the moment.

[Whorg]

are the saber block changes only affecting pvp engagements hopefully?

It's for both PvP and PvE. But for how squishy Jedi are against PvE ranged, this probably should be adjusted. (This is why we test!)

Edit: Not on test yet, but I've adjusted it to the following:

• [Adjusted] Saber block PvE 85% max, -10% stunned, -5% blinded

-15% total for PvE is you are stunned and blinded. Instead of disabling it entirely, I figured it'd be something for healers who heal states and Enhancers who resist. (Even though PvE just reapplies states non-stop lol)

PvP is as previously stated: Saber block PvP 70% max, -20% stunned, -10% blinded

Additionally, I think that the temporary disable for force run is a good idea too, but like I said I think that we should focus on balancing one mechanic at a time instead of sweeping overhauls to the abilities. So that each one can be tested on how much it effects the balance. But yes you’re right, if a Jedi has fr2 they can escape with ease and I think that down the road something should be implemented for a counter.

I've considered a few "temporary" options for Force Run. Perhaps if a Jedi is Knocked down, it removes Force Run from the Jedi. Also, if the Jedi has the dizzy state, they cannot activate Force Run. A new ability / state is ideal, but I'm trying not to get too distracted from what I'm currently working on.



Only issue I see with this possible change is that instead of Force Run being used as a retreat when they are losing a battle, Jedi will just instantaneously run the second a BH engages since the Jedi knows they can't run if they are dizzied.

Also, Pistols doesn't have a dizzy ability. Nor am I sure that I want to add it. Might be worth trying...

---

By the way, these changes may not be on test for very long before they are pushed to live. So any FR changes probably won't make it, but the saber block will.

So now that the playerbase has increased quite a bit, PVP has been existant again, and seeing a lot of new Jedi and BH alike roaming the galaxy, can we re-visit this topic?

What Im seeing is well thought out BH builds built to compete with these Jedi. The ranged changes that were implemented were a great start, as I am noticing more and more ranged BH's now and some even putting up good fights, on par with melee even.
However, the lack of any skill or means of disabling a Jedi using force run who is losing or nearly out of force is a huge concern and already seeing skilled BH's giving up the class. As it is, Force Run 2 can be activated at any time and to my knowledge there is no way for an opponent to stop that from happening. Being a Jedi in this time, on the bounty boards, and even moreso being Overt should be an extreme risk for a Jedi. Right now as it stands there is 0% risk he has FR2. If he is outnumbered, losing a battle, or running low on force, its just a matter of pressing 1-button and running away to safety.

Having pvp'd quite a bit here, Im not even sure that placing a dizzy to disable FR is the answer. Having one myself, getting a Master Defender stated with any states is an extreme task and the success rate is very, very low. This also favors the already heavily dominated melee BH builds over ranged as there are not many dizzy attacks avail to ranged (pistols in particular), not sure of carbines or rifles. But every melee class has access to at least 1 dizzy.

I think I mentioned it before, but Infinity EMU had a great ability implemented for BH only, some form of a throwable trap, with a longish cooldown (1.5 or 2 min I think?), that would disable FR. There are tactics involved as well, as many skilled Jedi would "bait" the BH into using it, and if it hit while FR wasnt up, its wasted. Would be something to consider.

Thoughts?

[Tyclo]

I've not definitely not forgotten about this, same goes for anything posted in the Wish List forum, I read everything. I don't like saying "Soon" as it could be a meme at this point, but this is on a list, one lists currently sits at "83/129" of things I'm working on. Other is a measly 2/23. PvP is like -3/9000. (Last one isn't actually numerated, lol)

Once what's on the Test Server is on Live, PvP balancing is on the list of things to do. Including fixes to Armorsmith and some other things for you all to enjoy.

Keep in mind, not only has our player base grown, but so has our development team. Right now, we're in the process of getting ready to make some major changes, the first of which was moving to a new server. Next are some improvement to help accommodate a larger development team and will happen after the next major patch, which will be done whenever I can finish it.

Concerning working on something for FR, I would prefer a more a sophisticated solution closer to what you're suggesting.