ranged vs jedi

[aztecgold12]

I have to say I really like a lot of the things being implemented and they way in which they are.

1) the fact that the saber block decrease is only for PvP and still 85% for PVE.
-This is great because it allows less PvP oriented players to still farm away against ranged stuff, while at the same time balancing the ranged bh vs Jedi fights. Definitely a win win implement imo.

2)The dizzy and/or knockdown disabling force run/sprint.
- Also I think great direction to take because I believe it would easier to code probably than adding an item that does it. Further it gives Jedi a chance to counter it with either heal states or in enhancer resist states thus giving a good push and pull between the 2 classes.

3)pistols not having a dizzy and carbines do.
-I am actually fine with this because I believe it adds balance between carbines and pistols. Pistols can blind thus lower saber block more, where carbines could disable force run. Kind of gives each one a specialty for what a bh wants to go into.

4)DoT drop rates & BH/CMs
- I like how both are currently and don’t think they need to change. The DoT drop rates are low and that is fine because I believe that all these changes are being put in place so that you don’t need DoTs to stand a chance. Plus it’s way harder to balance OP DoTs once a player has them as opposed to fine tuning the game mechanics like we are now. Lastly I’d rather players get a template, gear up with food, weapons, and armor to be able to play instead of having to grind forever waiting for a good DoT to drop.

On the topic of bh-cm specifically I think they are fine because they have to sacrifice so much defense for it. However, I can understand that CMs that are normal can be quite powerful because they still have defenses. This is my suggestion if people feel master CMs are too powerful: cap the cm effectiveness at 75 instead of 100. Thus, only master CMs are nerfed somewhat, but it keeps bh/cm the same. I’d love to hear feedback on this idea.

Anyway to conclude I think tyclo and the team are doing a great job, and love the directions we are taking towards balance imo.

[Awesome]

have to be careful implementing traps/forceRun disablers against Jedi, being 5 BHs can take one jedi mission, disabling forceRun takes away an escape for the jedi. If 5 BHs come for me and turn red im pretty sure im hitting FR2 and boogie out. I May try to AI for a couple minutes and see if I can get one or two, but outside of that im outta there. If Traps are put in place it doesn't leave any option for jedi at that point but to stay and die, especially if dizzy is all it takes to root me. Taking enhancer xx4x or heal xxx4 wont help because in order to take that skill the only real choice on what to drop would be enhancer 4xxx to grab it, and if I have to drop FR2 whats the point of an anti rooting skill. I think better than to root the jedi, give the BH a temporary speed bonus like burst run that can match the jedi but also should have the same damage mitigation factor the jedi face while using FR2 Since the BH can outnumber a jedi 5 to 1, I think the jedi need the ability to get away. If 5 players can fight one player and we want to root that one player I think we have to flip the equation and think make the 5 players match the one players speed, that would be balance if there is such a thing. I agree jedi is on the verge of OP here, but rooting him I think is in the wrong direction. Might be too much of a nerf. Id rather see BH get some love vs taking away from jedi, give BH some sneakers and lets make this fun. Also I don't think BH should ever be as fast as FR3, master enhancers have a tough enough time playing their templates, they need all the love they can get, it truly is the hardest jedi build to play.

[Tyclo]

Sounds good Tyclo. I like the dizzy and kd removing force run, would just need to add in the cool down timer or code it as a manual deactivate to start so they can’t just instantly turn it back on. Same as sprint being disabled on kd, and sprint not being able to be used if dizzied. I like it. Might also make more people think about taking force resist states from enhancer.

I agree pistols don’t need a dizzy with these changes, if you were to put one in I would put it in the master bh box to make master bh more appealing, whether it’s on fast blast or a different special. If you left dizzy off of pistols it would def make carbines more appealing which could be good as well, however you might consider making fast blast usable with carbines and pistols, again to make the master bh box more appealing. Just some thoughts, I think we are on the right track though and would love to hear others peoples opinions and suggestions.

Dizzy and Knockdown for Force Run is a temporary "maybe." It's doable, but I'm still debating on the idea.

The ideal solution would be a new BH ability usable with Pistols, Carbines and Rifles with a ~30s cooldown that disables Force Run for a timed duration. This would take more time to implement than using something existing. Eventually, I'd like to make this happen.

Some server's have added Fastblast as a dual Pistol + Carbine ability. I thought about it, but I also don't want to follow what every server does. I've also discovered that Pistol's DoubleTap is pretty strong. SWGEmu nerfed it, but I decided not to and only adjusted it slightly. It's not as strong as fastBlast, but it's a pretty viable ability. I'd rather not throw the strongest ability (by far) for Pistols into BH, instead keep it as a utility prof or something geared towards hunting. Nothing is final, I haven't put much thought into this to be honest. Everything is on the table.

Carbineer does have a blind, fullAutoSingle2 and fullAutoArea2.

What if you just made saber block not work against heavy weapons like the LLC, flame thrower, and acid rifle? That way bh can be more effective, and encourage heavy weapon use for more than just pve.

Maybe, but LLC, Flamethrowers and Acid rifles do A LOT of damage. Especially flamethrowers. Balancing this would suck, not something I want to get into at the moment, but thought noted.

....

what about giving the BH the requirement like in CU .. Scout 4xxx and Marksman xxx4 instead of Master Marks ..would allow a bit more Builds and i think good Melee Builds ..

....

You need to Test ..geno /scatter/de10 500+max dmg with some 250str DoT Pistols .. thats what nearly every BH had

Since you have a low DoT Weapon chance and the Jedi can drop FS .. the balance will be nearly impossible ..
Maybee make a higher chance of good DoT LLC /Cara / Pistols on MBH Missis only ?

just my 2 cent

The problem with opening up skill points is two fold.

One, once it's done, it can't be easily undone. (I would need to develop a system to handle ever reversing this. AKA, a lot of time)
Two, and the real problem, it makes melee BH even stronger, which is not what I want. I'd rather see more ranged BH than melee BH. Pikeman + BH can be decent with the right DoTs and playing the endurance game.

That's been my "worse case" test scenario. Minus the DoTs that is. A 500+ damage pistol with doubleTap was tearing through a Master Defender when I tried it.

Yellow/Exceptional/Legendary components and DoTs make things REALLY difficult to balance. Only thing I can do is add hard caps during combat calculation for PvP, which I have not.

DoT weapon drop chances are the same on SR as Basilisk. But stats on DoT weapons have been reduced.

On the topic of bh-cm specifically I think they are fine because they have to sacrifice so much defense for it. However, I can understand that CMs that are normal can be quite powerful because they still have defenses. This is my suggestion if people feel master CMs are too powerful: cap the cm effectiveness at 75 instead of 100. Thus, only master CMs are nerfed somewhat, but it keeps bh/cm the same. I’d love to hear feedback on this idea.

Anyway to conclude I think tyclo and the team are doing a great job, and love the directions we are taking towards balance imo.

CM is a problem, not just when BHing Jedi, but in general. I have an idea to balance it out a bit, but that's going to take some serious thought and testing. Any suggestions are appreciated and noted.

One issue that I would like to solve in the more immediate future with CM is how applying DoTs doesn't initiate a BH tef.

And thanks everyone.

[Tyclo]

have to be careful implementing traps/forceRun disablers against Jedi, being 5 BHs can take one jedi mission, disabling forceRun takes away an escape for the jedi. If 5 BHs come for me and turn red im pretty sure im hitting FR2 and boogie out. I May try to AI for a couple minutes and see if I can get one or two, but outside of that im outta there. If Traps are put in place it doesn't leave any option for jedi at that point but to stay and die, especially if dizzy is all it takes to root me. Taking enhancer xx4x or heal xxx4 wont help because in order to take that skill the only real choice on what to drop would be enhancer 4xxx to grab it, and if I have to drop FR2 whats the point of an anti rooting skill. I think better than to root the jedi, give the BH a temporary speed bonus like burst run that can match the jedi but also should have the same damage mitigation factor the jedi face while using FR2 Since the BH can outnumber a jedi 5 to 1, I think the jedi need the ability to get away. If 5 players can fight one player and we want to root that one player I think we have to flip the equation and think make the 5 players match the one players speed, that would be balance if there is such a thing. I agree jedi is on the verge of OP here, but rooting him I think is in the wrong direction. Might be too much of a nerf. Id rather see BH get some love vs taking away from jedi, give BH some sneakers and lets make this fun. Also I don't think BH should ever be as fast as FR3, master enhancers have a tough enough time playing their templates, they need all the love they can get, it truly is the hardest jedi build to play.

It's why I'm very hesitant to implement the "dizzy" idea. It's too simple.

I would probably lower the max number of BH's that can hunt a Jedi to 2 or 3, only increasing that number if the Jedi has FRS. (FRS is still TBD, it's really OP and broken balance wise) Lowering the number of BH that can take a Jedi's mission is probably a good idea regardless as no one wants to fight 5 BH's at once, it's kind of insane for that to even be an option.

I'm not looking at rooting the Jedi, only disabling Force Run for a timed duration, forcing the Jedi to fight. Something like an ability that would have a 30 second cool down and disable Force Run on the Jedi for 30s. Then maybe (if possible) a buff to the Jedi where they cannot be "debuffed" for 5s. This would stop multiple BH's from keeping a Jedi's Force Run disabled, but also allow a BH to knockdown a Jedi for 5s so they can't force run away.

BH "force run" is also an idea. I definitely would like something for melee professions.

These are just concepts and with SWG's limited nature, I will need to see what's doable without developing too many systems to handle this sort of functionality. With ideas like this, there's a lot of thought that goes into how thing can be exploited or used incorrectly. It's really tedious and requires a lot of testing.

Right now, I'm trying to get some PvE content done, so I have no eta on anything like this. The dizzy idea was just a concept.

[Roccah]

The problem with opening up skill points is two fold.

One, once it's done, it can't be easily undone. (I would need to develop a system to handle ever reversing this. AKA, a lot of time)
Two, and the real problem, it makes melee BH even stronger, which is not what I want. I'd rather see more ranged BH than melee BH. Pikeman + BH can be decent with the right DoTs and playing the endurance game.

That's been my "worse case" test scenario. Minus the DoTs that is. A 500+ damage pistol with doubleTap was tearing through a Master Defender when I tried it.

Yellow/Exceptional/Legendary components and DoTs make things REALLY difficult to balance. Only thing I can do is add hard caps during combat calculation for PvP, which I have not.

DoT weapon drop chances are the same on SR as Basilisk. But stats on DoT weapons have been reduced.

Ye i know Emu reduced it
i know that well i stoped 2month later there since i not get any DoT Weapons ... try killing CW and Elder as Pike without DoT will take Ages
What i can say ..where i got most med ranged DoTs on Live .. i went to Nyax .. 1 out of 3 kills he gave me a DoT Weapoin ... 1 DoT Weapon out of 10maybee 15 had a good str 150+ on Bas since reduce nothing in 1 month daily 2 kills lol
Also had several Donkuwah Knifes .. 1 Buff you got arround 2-3DoT Knifes .. the DoT was Random but only on Health and up to 300 (higher DoTs had max pot of 60-70% ..nearly same ..i got 1 very crappy DoT after 2 Weeks spending 1 Buff duration there ..
I tryed a lot build on Live for my BH .. most effectiv was TKA/BH (Fire Vk , DoT Knifes).. i only went Ranged BH because of Mando Amor lol .. and i already sayed befor i got a Decend Weapon Component Drop while doing some MasterBH NPC Mission and never again had Problems
Good BH easy said .. need good Equip
That will be a hard thing to Balance out
I do not want to be in your skin

[Roccah]

On the topic of bh-cm specifically I think they are fine because they have to sacrifice so much defense for it. However, I can understand that CMs that are normal can be quite powerful because they still have defenses. This is my suggestion if people feel master CMs are too powerful: cap the cm effectiveness at 75 instead of 100. Thus, only master CMs are nerfed somewhat, but it keeps bh/cm the same. I’d love to hear feedback on this idea.

Anyway to conclude I think tyclo and the team are doing a great job, and love the directions we are taking towards balance imo.

CM is a problem, not just when BHing Jedi, but in general. I have an idea to balance it out a bit, but that's going to take some serious thought and testing. Any suggestions are appreciated and noted.

One issue that I would like to solve in the more immediate future with CM is how applying DoTs doesn't initiate a BH tef.

And thanks everyone.

CM should only can stack 1 Single and 1 AOE .. if you have 1 single mind you cant add a further mind in single ..no abc stacking
only 1single c and 1 aoe c each pool .
The tick on Disease should be work other .. disease has 180pwr so let it tick more often. but only for that amount ..actually it tick very rare ..i think 40sec arround + the 180 disease goes for 320 nearly double ..that would help getting the TEF up faster ..a BH can stack atm 4-5disease befor it disease tick and he went Red ... 3main pool C + that poison you wanne attack ..
and btw ..CM is no problem if you are skilled in heal .. i was master LS/master Heal and never had problem with any DoTs .. the BH has no def while playing CM
It will end like every other Fight against a Ranged Class ..jedi rush and rape the Ranged
That was always a problem on Live .. since Jedi poped up ..Ranged left PvP ..only a very small Ranged where in PvP and that would mostly be BHpistol +master pistoleer or stacker fencer/pistoleer .. rifleman poped up and where down a second later

but back to ranged vs jedi
the LLC never where any good .. dont know if EMU fixed it or you did ..but the acc was more like a shame ..
but i would says ..that the LLC have the most potencial to be a Jedi Killer ...
due Pistol or Cara can be took as prof also and you get the whole acc from that prof ..
LLC need ways more acc .. i would say .. any maybee switch one of this cara KD to LLC .. would be worth a try i think

[Awesome]

regarding CM being OP, the way it was on live, if your enemy had CMs it forced you to either bring docs, or have doc 4xxx in your build to counter the CM. Being they were such a force to deal with, CMs never lived long, they always got primaried. Simplest way to nerf Cm is to pull spider venoms from the game. This way its just crafts without enhancements, I honestly think CM is fine as is ,it gives the opposing side some choices as to what toons to bring to the fight, it makes docs very valuable besides cantina buffers. If we ever go the way of group TEF here u will want strong profs like CMs that break the ranks temporarily. I know everyone is looking for balance, but I think its a pipe dream, the way you balance combat in SWG is in the creation of combat toons design to counter your enemy, if SWG didn't have the diversity in combat profs I don't think it would be the game it is today, as every build can be countered with another

[altarian]

So I'm an actual BH/carbineer, not many of us. I would love the master BH skill changed for carbines. It essentially applies states, but the confusion shot from BH x4xx actually applied better states bc of stun and they stick more often. I got MBH bc of pve missions, but the reward for cabineers is a skill you don't use where as fast blast is very great for pistols which don't need the help. It would be good IMO and makes sense to make fast blast for both, who cares if other servers have done that, if it works and is helpful then I say try it.
We all know it would do the server well to have actual ranged BH and not all melee ones.

I'm fine with FR, I think that you catch a Jedi who wants to fight or you gotta be good at catching one unawares.

[altarian]

Also, I like the saber block change but as a Jedi as well I'm thankful you are leaving pve block alone

[Whorg]

Some great ideas here. My 2c, making heavy weapon types ignore saber block would be over the top I think, I’ve tested recently and high damage flamers hit hard when the Jedi is kd. Add in a cap speed flamer and the Jedi is dead on a single kd.

FR disabler, I like the idea of a unique skill for the FR disabler, or a throwable trap as BH do have those scout trees for a reason, on a cooldown which would take some testing to get the timer right.

Rocket boots for a brief Bh run boost maybe?

Awesome - imo that is the exact mentality we need to get away from, FR2 and boogeying out. It’s too easy. There has to be real consequences to being on the terms, and also choosing to be a knight and perm overt which there aren’t right now. The Jedi shouldn’t be able to pick and choose their fights. If they are caught out in the open, they should have a real chance of dying. Either win, or lose, not just high tail it out if the odds aren’t in their favor. This is why you rarely see BH here, it’s no fun to find your mark and have him run away with nothing you can do about it. Or have him just run away after he gets low on force (sometimes the only way to kill a Jedi is to run him out of force).

I do agree also with these changes that the number of BH per Jedi mission needs to be lowered. 2 for padawan, maybe 3 for knights(not sure on this since knight doesn’t give anything but a title and a robe, which u can just drop after setting title anyways). FRS is t here yet so no reason to get into that yet .

Also the suggestion for fast blast being usable by carbs as well as pistols is just to get some variation in builds. I fee without it, you are severely gimping yourself by choosing carbs over pistols. Even with it, pistols are still probably better because of the great state defenses and melee defense in the pistoleer tree.

Thoughts?